Against the Rules with Michael Lewis: The Trial of Sam Bankman-Fried

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Journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis explores the figures in American life who rely on the public's trust, whether in sports, in business, in the courtroom, or on TV. What happens when that trust erodes and we can no longer agree on what's fair and what's not?

In the latest season of his podcast, Michael takes on America’s newest form of legalized gambling, sports betting, and how it’s changing what it means to be a player…a teenager…and most of all, a fan.

iHeartMedia is the exclusive podcast partner of Pushkin Industries.

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Recent Reviews
  • cbest53
    Fans
    I’m interested in the sports gambling phenomenon but I can’t handle the Malcolm ads over and over and over…..
  • Buzz Doyle
    Excellent Pod!
    Great show, educational and entertaining, Michael Lewis is such a great storyteller!
  • nkbarth
    How accurate is the information??
    After listening to your take on the “Mormons” in the series about sports gambling, I’ve had to rethink a lot of the information I’ve heard from you previously. Your information on Utah, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is very wrong. I would ask that you do more research and come with more facts as opposed to opinions or perceptions of others.
  • cdw67890
    A bit hypocritical
    I love that Pushkin is advertising for a credit card you can apply for from your iPhone during a podcast concerning financial irresponsibility. Interesting narrative, but a few too many hypocritical slips to slips to consider journalism.
  • moving on-missu
    Great interviewer
    But had to say terrible choice of Marci Cottingham. Your questions were far better than her answers. Next time, just throw the over educated and under informed responses in the trash and find another person to interview, don’t waste our time. The “I don’t understand” and “my dad listened to Myron Cope every Sunday driving home from church” is such an unbelievable interview and such a pretentious outlook. Bad person to interview, either just an insincere educator or not very smart.
  • justnuisance
    Bonus episodes
    I think I might like the bonus episodes better than the actual ones. It’s just an engaged listener speaking with an expert. Today’s was very entertaining. I also liked last year’s interviews with the crypto skeptic (her name escapes me) and the bankruptcy attorney (bankruptcy!).
  • @TheGirlPie
    Michael Lewis is brilliant
    I can listen to Michael Lewis talk to and about anyone and anything he’s interested in. The way his mind works out a question, how he gets his subjects to talk straight, his own curiosity and delight in discovery… he’s never not compelling. And the arc of all seasons as a whole is so satisfying. I try to save the episodes to binge on three at a time, and they are EVERGREEN. Bravo to Team ATR.
  • tgsblazers
    Good Analyses by JL
    As someone who is overly familiar with courtrooms, and sometimes takes it for granted that others are as well, JL does an incredible job of describing things to people who aren’t and gives great insight into the intricacies and nuances of criminal courts and especially criminal Trials, from jurors nodding off to picking up on the spin both side’s lawyers are trying to put on things , it was very impressive and a great Listen. By the way, it’s not Lewis’ job to play the role of the SEC/FBI/Justive Department, and having sympathy for a person about to spend decades in prison doesn’t make you a bad person, it makes you a person.
  • Frump2020
    Michael Lewis should go to jail
    I’m not sure how he wasn’t implicated in the trial. He was present and documented all this fraud while it was occurring which should implicate him in the conspiracy. His laughing in episode 10 with Levine wreaks of guilty conscience. This podcast also shows him as a complete sellout. There is one episode that is 9 minutes long with 6 minutes of commercials. I get you want people to subscribe, but that just made me stop listening. When I was a kid and I started reading Lewis’ books I had such respect for him. Now I just feel I was duped. He’s a con artist, I couldn’t respect him less. Awful podcast and production, awful person. Talk about selling out for money IN ALL WAYS, especially when you’re already rich
  • Justwool
    Most disappointing fall
    Just pretend there’s is t anything past season 2. If you pretend Micheal Lewis died after that it makes everything before still acceptable. Still cannot believe how incredibly dumb this forced push into SBF is. 1 star for whatever credit is deserved for season 1 and 2. Now if only I could block this podcast.
  • Josh from Spoilers!
    Host of podcast conned by conman
    Lewis being conned is really the best case scenario, because it’s more likely “host of podcast sympathizes terrible criminal for podcast listens.”
  • rand0
    Disappointing
    I’ve lost a lot of respect for Michael Lewis as a consequence of his seemingly deep sympathy for SBF. SBF is an arrogant, narcissist criminal who deserves every day he serves.
  • Gradgrind X
    A word from Dickens on utilitarianism
    Bankman-Fried’s favorite philsophy, Utilitarianism, is featured a little bit in “Hard Times,” by Dickens … and includes a word of warning from Dickens to utilitarians!:”Utilitarian economists … the poor you will have always with you. Cultivate in them, while there is yet time, the utmost graces of the fancies and affections, to adorn their lives so much in need of ornament; or, in the day of your triumph, when romance is utterly driven out of their souls, and they and a bare existence stand face to face, Reality will take a wolfish turn, and make an end of you.”
  • Vr&a
    Listened to every minute
    This is a compelling story and very well told. Five stars on this one.
  • jneuhauser
    Michael Lewis is so blinded to his own bias
    That he immediately pushes back and interjects against anyone who thinks differently than him.
  • ulyfv35
    Tried to listen
    Gave this season a shot. Hard to listen to.
  • Mauiguy1
    Lewis great, Pushkin horrid
    Michael Lewis is terrific. Probably my favorite writer and podcaster. That said, Gladwell has ruined all Pushkin pods by caring only about ad money. Years ago, the Pushkin pods were spectacular. Making money is great, but focusing solely on short-term profits is deplorable. On a recent 11 minute podcast, there were 6 minutes of ads….not a typo, 6 minutes of ads in an 11 minute pod. Add to that a few of Gladwells full episodes that are just commercials for T Mobile. Paying the bills and profiting is one thing. Selling your integrity is quite another.
  • auty home
    LOVE!
    GREAT JOB! YOU ALL ARE DOING AMAZING WORK!
  • JT Akers
    Typical M. Lewis greatness!!
    Only bummed I didn’t discover this sooner. Big Pushkin fan and even bigger M. Lewis fan. Absolutely loved the BTS and real life interviews and insights of such a game changing book. Didn’t know Liars Poker was such a big deal. I, too left a life of Wall Street for something else.
  • Callahansfeedstore
    Nosedive
    I once loved this podcast. Michael Lewis and the team did a great job for three seasons. This fourth however is pretty much unlistenable. A decent portion of the blame falls on the new reporter whose voice is a challenge and writing weak, but also the overall composition of the whole season feels sloppy. Seems like Pushkin’s more focused on commercials than content these days.
  • GracieEsq
    Voice is a intolerable
    Ms Kott has a voice that I find intolerable - I simply cannot listen to her.
  • DL3222
    SBF
    I love the SBF season, Lydia J Cott is a star!
  • buddhatim
    More adds than content
    I get that this is a business and you need to raise revenue, but this was ridiculous. After all, you’re already saving money by having your fourteen year old baby-sitter act as the court reporter. Love the writer, but this season was not good.
  • Pya3g
    Odd. Lewis has lost all credibility
    This is so oddly pro Sam Bankman, non stop downplaying and justifying his crimes. “The money was just not where it was supposed to be” and calling Sam a genius? Not sure how you are all drinking that kool aid unless this is Lewis’s attempt at avoiding culpability for hanging out with Sam as he committed all these crimes.
  • Robon180
    Add to list
    Book was fascinating storytelling as always. The trial series is the perfect sequel. We know what Michael Lewis is capable of, but how about that Lydia. Definitely not out of central casting for a talking head, which is refreshing. In addition, she is intelligent and sounds so sweet and innocent how could you not trust her. She asks insightful questions from an audience perspective with einstinian curiosity and innocence.
  • Arns19
    Disappointed with Season 4, SBF Trial
    This season featured the impulsive reactions of four, five, six? people to the federal criminal trial proceedings in a highly publicized case. I’m not sure why this was turned into a podcast; I’d venture to guess that it was for ratings, primarily. But it was rushed, not well understood by anyone except the prosecutor-turned-criminal-defense-lawyer and jury consultant guests, and presented arguably unprofessionally by everyone in the Pushkin team. The first question was why Michael delegated it to someone else. Perhaps he was working on a separate project or had to tend to something of bigger importance—more power to him. But with a large number of media publishers also covering it, we weren’t wanting of more opinions; especially ones that gave priority to color commentary. But what disappointment me most was what he had to say. It’s been widely reported that his book received bad press for choosing to reserve judgment while presenting the facts of the rise and fall of FTX as he observed it and as they presented themselves to him. But upon his return, after SBF took the stand, it seemed like his reservation was starting to wear off. What was most egregious and unprofessional was how he kept comparing what he wrote to what was being said at trial, and disapproving constantly, in a national, well-circulated podcast released well before jury deliberations. Even in a case as clear and one-sided as this, for Pushkin to release his commentary and opinions in a manner accessible to the Jury before the Jury concluded deliberations was extremely disconcerting. Everything else discussed about the case was of very little substance. I’m disillusioned with this Pushkin team. No one needed to make a podcast about their takes on the trial proceedings, even Michael Lewis.
  • Cohasset Pod Man
    Embarrassing for Michael Lewis
    This podcast really tarnishes a great writer I’ve long enjoyed. Michael Lewis seems unable to recognize Sam Bankman Fried is both not a genius and little more than a scam artist. This podcast comes off very very poorly.
  • Three ducks in a trench coat
    Fantastic work by Lidia Jean
    This review is specifically about Season 4, Judging Sam. It’s unfortunate that Lidia Jean is only credited as “court reporter” because honestly she did a fantastic job covering the trial, conveying both the facts but also the sentiment and nuance of the proceedings. They should have just made her the host and let her run with it. The weakest episodes were actually when Michael Lewis was in court, in which he took a “no facts, just vibes” approach to reporting.
  • MexicanRodrigo
    Lidia Jean Kott is incredible!
    I’ve listened to thousands of hours worth of podcasts, and Lidia Jean Kott’s talent for asking the most amazing questions is incredible. She not only asks what I wish she did, she also asks what I wish I had thought of asking. Her instincts as a reporter are so good, Michael Lewis is lucky to have her on this podcast. Pushkin should give her her own show!!
  • thoughtsfrombelmont
    Not Much Here
    Hard to find the actual show amongst all the ads.
  • maralikesthedog
    👊🏼💕
    This podcast is fantastic. Lidia Jean Kott is a national treasure. Protect her at all costs.
  • Bojado72
    Lidia is awesome but can’t get past Michael Lewis out of touch opinions
    Oh I think people are being very unfair to Lydia due to her voice when in reality she’s actually excellent, knows the case very well and gives very good recaps. The issue I have is how ridiculous Michael Lewis comes across as almost a Sam apologist. It’s actually embarrassing to hear Lewis continually thinking he’s coming up with good points in the defense of Sam when in reality he’s really making a fool of himself and losing fans such as myself
  • Hurt-dance
    ???
    Borderline unlistenable. Without the first person singular pronoun these people couldn’t compose a sentence. It’s a real trick to start with a complex fascinating story and leave the listener bored. And the ads! Interminable. I’ll never buy anything advertised on this podcast. If Pushkin thinks they’re pushing us to subscribe by hurting us, they’re wrong. The effect is to avoid anything Pushkin.
  • Beavis67
    Dump the podcast
    Worst podcast ever. Michael, stick to writing books. Bonus episode on financial planning was an embarrassment. You seem to have thing for career woman, usually intelligent of a certain age who really are not suited for communicating in podcast. You’ve made plenty of money, and will make more. Stay in your wheelhouse - trying to expand up our pitching repertoire will shorten your big league career.
  • court1413
    Unlistenable
    Interesting content but impossible to get through & enjoy with “LJ” as a major host. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a worse voice on a podcast. She’s uneducated & juvenile on top of it. I agree with another commenter that she treats the trial like a HS field trip. If she’s a journalist than I’m an astronaut. Sorry, but someone really dropped the ball here thinking she was a good idea. She needs a different career.
  • Curious Sam
    Baby voice
    The host’s childish voice makes this podcast unlistenable. She needs some voice training.
  • SF Lupa
    Appreciating this pod but….
    Late to the party and only started this pod a few days ago. Overall I find it engaging and informative on a subject I haven’t had a chance to learn much about - Sam’s story. My only criticism is- sorry!- using Lidia to report; her voice and mannerisms convey a lack of confidence and the communication skills of a teen who uses baby talk. I have dear personal friends with odd speech affectations and know that people speak how they speak but I would never encourage them to do a big national podcast.
  • Sapdoug
    Having trouble with narration
    I was surprised to see first comment praising narrator’s fresh enthusiastic voice. I guess I am stale and dull, but I have trouble getting past the voice to get to the meaning. The story is interesting though.
  • Bookgasm
    Lewis Too Enamored with Subject
    Lewis isn’t a big part of the podcast, but when he *is* on he comes across as slightly arrogant and as an SBF apologist. To hear him say SBF’s parents don’t deserve this and he hopes that the press/law leave them alone is 🤯. SBF wasn’t created/enabled in a vacuum. Not that they should go to jail, but come on—their involvement isn’t nothing.
  • MeganAnn1978
    Too much SBF worshipping
    There are some solid pieces of analysis, here, however, it’s hard to get past Michael Lewis, worshiping Sam Bankman-Fried. He’s completely blind to some of the wrongdoings, including his parents. Felt very biased.
  • REI Cliff
    Response
    Where is your full response and reaction to the verdict? Don’t leave us hanging.
  • Bill, Just Bill
    Unlistenable
    Michael Lewis is great but regrettably absent from most of this podcast. The problem is the host. If someone can be said to have a voice made for sign language she does. Horrible.
  • B Frie
    Not everyone…
    …has the right voice for a podcast. Lydia Jean’s voice is like nails on a chalkboard. Cringe worthy.
  • LynnieAllwell
    Just not very good
    Poor audio quality. Not much analysis or insight. Michael Lewis was on book tour and so others filled in.
  • AATX1228
    As insufferable as 60 Minutes interview
    SBF trial covered by Michael Lewis and an acolyte. Lewis is still in awe of his subject and there is no breaking him out of his spell. Lewis and host never take what SBF was accused of a serious or consequential matter. It’s all about moves, theory, explanation…
  • megerrrrrs
    Such a shame
    This podcast drives me nuts. The actual info on the SBF trial is so interesting and I love those parts. But it feels like it’s half ads, and the reporters voice is so juvenile and up talking it makes it very hard to listen, especially in taped phone calls.
  • jmrsf
    Bravo to reporter Lidia Jean Kott
    Enjoying her enthusiastic fresh smart voice.
  • Grog519
    Truly Bizarre
    This is among the strangest podcasts I’ve ever encountered. The tone is utterly cringe. LJ treats the trial like a high school field trip. So much secondhand embarrassment listening to her talk about her court friends. In her defense, she’s clearly very young and needed more guidance than she was given. Michael Lewis feels like an artifact from another era. He doesn’t seem to have much of a grasp on the underlying legal issues, preferring to frame the trial as just another fun setting in which to see his favorite character exist. It’s all so strange. And sad. The entire podcast has this weird, manically under-produced energy that is only compounded by the endless online casino ads.
  • kreed4
    All ads. Very disappointing.
    A clear cash grab, with by far the highest ratio of ads to content I’ve ever encountered. Michael Lewis should be ashamed to be so duped, and continue to run propaganda, for a phony. If Lewis had credibility, he should has scrapped the book once it became clear that he only had 20% of the story and was being used as a stooge.
  • SM-CO
    Great work!
    Great work Michael and LJ. Your insights to the trial and its goings on were great to hear from “the inside”. Looking forward to hearing more. P.S. Your book was a great read too.
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